El castellano tonto 'corto de inteligencia' tiene además la acepción 'oscuro, nublado (hablando del tiempo)'1, que no aparece en el DRAE pero sí en el diccionario de María Moliner, que recoge tonto (inf.) 'se aplica al tiempo inestable, tirando a malo'.
En mi opinión, éste sería el significado original de la voz castellana, con correspondencia exacta en el suletino dündü 'oscuro, nublado (hablando del tiempo)' y roncalés dundu 'azul'2. Se trata de una forma reduplicada con paralelos en el bereber (cabilio) ddǝmdǝm 'violeta'3 y el burushaski *tˀumtˀaŋ 'oscuro', a partir del mismo lexema que encontramos en el IE *temH-, sino-tibetano *dV:mH 'oscuro', austroasiático *tam/*tem 'noche'.
Como en el caso de otros préstamos de sustrato, el origen debe ser una lengua prelatina de la Península Ibérica que dejó su huella en el habla de los pastores trashumantes de la Cordillera Cantábrica y los Pirineos.
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En mi opinión, éste sería el significado original de la voz castellana, con correspondencia exacta en el suletino dündü 'oscuro, nublado (hablando del tiempo)' y roncalés dundu 'azul'2. Se trata de una forma reduplicada con paralelos en el bereber (cabilio) ddǝmdǝm 'violeta'3 y el burushaski *tˀumtˀaŋ 'oscuro', a partir del mismo lexema que encontramos en el IE *temH-, sino-tibetano *dV:mH 'oscuro', austroasiático *tam/*tem 'noche'.
Como en el caso de otros préstamos de sustrato, el origen debe ser una lengua prelatina de la Península Ibérica que dejó su huella en el habla de los pastores trashumantes de la Cordillera Cantábrica y los Pirineos.
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1 Como en la frase hace
un día tonto.
2 Existen también las formas diminutivas ddunddu /ɟúnɟu/, ddundduska 'azulado'.
3 Es dudosa la correspondencia con el chádico oriental (dinga) dinda 'rojo' y otras formas afroasiáticas (Militarev).
3 Es dudosa la correspondencia con el chádico oriental (dinga) dinda 'rojo' y otras formas afroasiáticas (Militarev).
I doubt this is of Berber origin. In fact, it is not.
ResponderEliminarThe semantic shift is easily seen. It is the same as in English were words related to darkness and stupidity/ ignorance are related.
Example:
benighted (comparative more benighted, superlative most benighted)
1. plunged into darkness
2. overtaken by night
3. lacking knowledge or education; unenlightened
This word is Spanish slang with a semantic shift like the same seen in English.
The etymology of Spanish tonto > attonitus [masculine] (attonita [feminine], attonitum [neuter]); first/second declension
Perfect passive participle of attonō
1. struck by lightning; 2. stunned, stupefied, dazed
By looking at the Latin word we can see the clear relation to cloudy weather. 9 times out of 10 if one is struck by lightning, there are bound to be clouds in the sky. The Latin word also evidences the semantic shift I mentioned earlier.
Correction: "...as in English WHERE words..."
ResponderEliminarI'm afraid you've conflated two HOMONYMOUS Spanish words: one is tonto 'dumb', whose Latin etymology from attonitus is disputed, and the other one, which belongs to the informal register (i.e. slang), has a quite different meaning as well as correspondences in Basque:
EliminarBasque dundu ~ Spanish tonto
Basque tutu, ttuttu /cucu/ ~ Spanish chocho /tʃótʃo/
Hola, Octavia
EliminarI must strongly disagree with your assessment. The point to the whole thing was to say that it is possible for the word to have to dual meanings.
I gave an example from English…Benighted (surrounded by or engulfed in darkness or night) and Benighted (stupid, foolish, ignorant, uneducated, and/ or unenlightened). It is well recognized that the two are not homophones, but two definitions for the same word. The former being the meaning in the old and formal usage and the latter being the more recent and informal usage. That, again, is the point that was being made.
Also note:
Foggy (adjective)
1. misty, grey, murky, cloudy, obscure, blurred, dim, hazy, nebulous, indistinct, soupy, smoggy, vaporous, brumous (rare). Conditions were damp and foggy this morning.
Misty: (Antonyms) clear, bright
2. unclear, confused, clouded, stupid, obscure, vague, dim, bewildered, muddled, dazed, cloudy, stupefied, indistinct, befuddled, dark. My foggy brain sifted through the possibilities.
Unclear: (Antonyms) clear, sharp, alert, accurate, distinct, decisive, awake, shrewd, lucid, palpable, undimmed
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002
Note that ”cloudy, clouded, and dim” and ”stupid, confused, stupefied, dim, and dark” are among the synonymous words. Also notice how “cloudy, dim” are listed for both definitions. Even this word shares semantics with Latin: attonitus. So this is evidence that Spanish: tonto (both forms) may very well be related to Latin: attonitus. As I said before, most lightning strikes happen in stormy, cloudy weather.
Dündü (Zuberoan) a. “cloudy, gloomy, dark” (of the sky); dundu (Ronclaese) ‘blue’.
Expressive. The Z[uberoan] sense is probably conservative. (R. L. Trask)
If, as Larry Trask states, the meaning of the word is conservative in Zuberoan. Then Roncalese ”blue” is a later innovation which could mean the Spanish word and Basque word are related to Spanish: tonto “stupid, dull, idiotic, foolish, ignorant, etc…” in the way I explained for English above.
My second point is:
Firstly, the reduplicative Kabyle Berber word you and your colleague site is a relatively young innovation confined to Kabyle Berber which is a relatively young dialect/ language of Northern Berber itself. So it is impossible for the reduplicative Kabyle Berber word to have any ancient connection to Basque on chronological grounds. On this ground, even Larry Trask agrees with me. He states, “Eastern [dundu], which cannot be ancient, is `blue' in Roncalese but `dark' in Zuberoan.”
I propose that the Kabyle Berber word may be, anciently, East Chadic-connected outside of the general Afroasiatic cognacy.
Proto-East Chadic: *dind- (<*dimdVm-)
Meaning: 'red'
Dangla: dinda Sk 1992, 346 (Militarev, Stolbova)
All other Berber words associated with the aforementioned Afroasiatic root are unlike the East Chadic and Kabyle Berber word in being non-reduplicative. The same for the rest of Afroasiatic. As stated above it is confined to Kabyle Berber and is not evident in any ancient form of Berber or any of the modern dialects/ languages. Only the non-reduplicative root is attested in the rest of Berber. It is highly unlikely that the reduplicative root existed outside of Kabyle Berber as it is not reduplicative in any other Afroasiatic branch that is known except East Chadic.
As regarding Afrasian, I think afraid Militarev conflated two different words. One would be (*ʔa-)dVʔm- 'red', found in Semitic *ʔa-dām-, Berber *a-dVmm-an, Central Cushitic (Agaw) *dVmm-, Low East Cushitic *di(H)m- and High East Cushitic *diʔm-. The other one would be *dVm- 'red, violet', found in Safo-Ahar *dum- and in reduplicated form also in East Chadic *dimdVm and Berber *dVmdVm.
EliminarThank you very much for the information.
I must strongly disagree with your assessment. The point to the whole thing was to say that it is possible for the word to have to dual meanings.
EliminarSorry, but even if your example works in English, it doesn't mean it also would work in Spanish (see below).
Note that ”cloudy, clouded, and dim” and ”stupid, confused, stupefied, dim, and dark” are among the synonymous words. Also notice how “cloudy, dim” are listed for both definitions.
Unfortunately, Spanish tonto 'dumb' hasn't the same connotations than those English words.
Even this word shares semantics with Latin: attonitus. So this is evidence that Spanish: tonto (both forms) may very well be related to Latin: attonitus.
This etymology is *dubious* and I think it's untenable. Most likely, Spanish tonto is a reduplicate stem.
As I said before, most lightning strikes happen in stormy, cloudy weather.
Sometimes, you're amusing. :-)
If, as Larry Trask states, the meaning of the word is conservative in Zuberoan. Then Roncalese ”blue” is a later innovation which could mean the Spanish word and Basque word are related to Spanish: tonto “stupid, dull, idiotic, foolish, ignorant, etc…” in the way I explained for English above.
Actually, I think it's the other way round, with Roncalese being conservative and Zuberoan a secondary development. The above photograph shows a cloudy sky with blue-violet tones. Notice also the Basque words can't derive from Spanish and much less from Latin.
Hola, Octavia!
ResponderEliminarI would not be so quick to dismiss the comparison of Spanish and English derivation of informal meanings. I think much of the same process happens in both languages. Remember, English is 65% or slightly more derived, ultimately, from Latin, many directly. This does not count Greek words. Of course, words from Latin's descendants are part of the bundle whether directly or indirectly transmitted. Anywhere from 20% to 25% of English is actually Germanic. This is why English is so divergent from other Germanic languages. It's lexicon is primarily Latin. If we did not know English's pedigree, one would think that English was a Latin derived language with a significant Germanic substrate, but like I said, we know English's pedigree and that it was massively relexified with Latin and Greek words. Not to mention adoption and borrowing of words from Latin derived languages directly or indirectly. American English is very divergent lexically because of the borrowing of even more foreign words owing to the melting pot nature of this country, also, because of innovations in the usage of many words spurred by various culture influences.
With all that being said, Spanish and English are not really all that different. The way Spanish speakers innovate usages is not much different from the process that occurs in English.
It would seem since the Basque word cannot be borrowed from Spanish, but nothing precludes the Spanish word from deriving from the Basque word since it may not be derived from Latin.
This is all based on Larry Trask's statement about Zuberoan meaning being the conservative meaning, which I agree with. One notices the clouds, darkness, gloominess, and dullness of the day before before I notice the color of the clouds. I don't walk outside on an overcast day and say, "What pretty violet-colored clouds." I suspect neither do you. So logically, the Zuberoan definition is highly likely the conservative one. The color of the clouds is likely a secondary innovation.
Notice in Afroasiatic the strong similarity of the roots with the one in your post. They are without a doubt related roots.
Proto-Afro-Asiatic: *dim-an-
Meaning: cloud, rain
Semitic: *da/imm(-an)- 1, 2 ~ *da/imm(-an)- 1, 2 ~ *dVwVm-, dVmVʕ- 3 , dVmVʕ- 3
Western Chadic: *(Ha)dam(-an)- 'rain' 1, 'rainy season' 2, 'cloud' 3
Central Chadic: *dyaman-
Central Cushitic (Agaw): *damin- 'cloud'
High East Cushitic: *duman- 'cloud'
Omotic: *daman- 'cloud'
Notes: Related to Afroasiatic: *dam- 'drop, drip'. (Militarev, Stolbova)
It is amazing how the root for "clouds" becomes a "color" (violet-blue) then > "red" then > "blood" then > "people" > "face (of a person)" > "to join or gather (of people), engage in a common enterprise (of people)", > "earth" this is where the notion in the Bible comes from that man of made of dust of the earth and God (the sky) breathing air/ his spirit into the man because of the associations of this root. Air (wind), breathing, the sky in Afroasiatic have also the connotations of spirit, soul, and life.
Also sorry for the redundancy in some of my posts. I splice together several trains thoughts and sometimes the proofreading and editing is, sometimes, lacking because of time constraints.
As you see in the last sentence above, hahaha
ResponderEliminarWith all that being said, Spanish and English are not really all that different. The way Spanish speakers innovate usages is not much different from the process that occurs in English.
EliminarPossibly so, but in order to show that, you must compare words whose meaning is the same in both languages. For example, let's take Spanish bollo 'bun' and horno 'oven' in the idiom no está el horno para bollos, which roughly translated into English would mean '(to be) in a predicament'. Compare this to English to have a bun in the oven 'to be pregnant (said of a woman)' as well as the machoist to put a bun in the oven 'to knock up (a woman)'. Rather amusing, isn't it?
Well, you just gave a superb example, hahaha
ResponderEliminarThe similarities are striking to say the least.
There are others also.